From the archives of some theosophical e-mail lists.

English

Universal Seekers

deserving help from the Masters

From: Katinka Hesselink
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 10:40 am
Subject: "waiting till you are ready"

Dear Brigitte,

You wrote:
> on an elusive group of beings called Masters , and one
> has to "wait"
> till one is ready, and "they" contact you?

One can (reportedly) also force their hand by actively helping humanity and working hard to clean yourself of all selfishness (including the idea that YOU are important as a a personality). Their work is a work governed by the laws
of karma. Therefore their hand can be forced by working hard and unselfishly for humanity and deserving Their help.
Of course those who are not motivated to help humanity no matter what, have to "wait" till they are ready. The
Mahatmas have better things to do then help those who don't really want to be helped.

Katinka


From: "Bill Meredith"
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: [US] "waiting till you are ready"
----------
> From: Katinka Hesselink <katinka_hesselink@y...>
> ......
>

The idea of working hard and unselfishly and yet somehow through such
unselfish work coming to deserve help from the masters is an
extraordinarily selfish if not self-delusional notion.

Thought processes can be deceiving, but in my opinion, only a person who
doesn't really *want* to be helped *deserves* any help from anyone, much
less a mahatma.

Bill



From: Katinka Hesselink
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: Re: "waiting till you are ready"


Good point. Words are so sticky sometimes. On the other
hand, if my students want my help, they have to ask for it.
Those content to not understand, will surely not get help.

But you are right that a chela has to depend on him/herself
first of all - the Mahatmas will only help those whose
thoughts are not about or for themselves. On the other hand
we have to get enough selfknowledge to be able to help
ourselves, which obviously includes attention going to
ourself.

Katinka



From: Eldon B Tucker
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:38 pm
Subject: deserving help from the Masters


At 03:17 PM 10/15/01 -0400, you wrote:
>The idea of working hard and unselfishly and yet somehow through such
>unselfish work coming to deserve help from the masters is an
>extraordinarily selfish if not self-delusional notion.
>
>Thought processes can be deceiving, but in my opinion, only a person who
>doesn't really *want* to be helped *deserves* any help from anyone, much
>less a mahatma.
>
>Bill

Perhaps a better way to put it is that if someone has
a strong interest in a certain subject or activity --
be it mathematics, education, the Path of self-discovery,
or the Bodhisattva idea of looking out for the spiritual
needs of humanity in general -- that person will naturally
be drawn towards association with people more skilled in it.

The attraction may lead one to books or other materials from
those adept in the field. Or it may lead to one coming
across such people in life, whom may play a mentor role in
one's own growth.

Artistic giants may associate with budding artists that
show great promise. Advanced mathematicians may have
younger associates. I'd expect the same for the spiritual
giants of humanity as well.

Some great people are solitary geniuses, and go their own
way. Others have a strong humanitarian interest, in both
mentoring others to carry on their work and in seeing that
their fruits of their efforts benefit others.

My impression of the theosophical Mahatmas are those of
humanity in the spiritual vanguard, those concerned with
humanity's progress and not solely their own "salvation,"
those working for a better world.

-- Eldon



From: Steve Stubbs <stevestubbs@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 11:24 pm
Subject: Re: [US] "waiting till you are ready"


Bill: The idea of working hard and unselfishly and yet
somehow through such unselfish work coming to deserve
help from the masters is an extraordinarily selfish if
not self-delusional notion."

Two comments. If this is Buddhism, the statement has
a significance which would not be obvious to
non-Buddhists.

Therefore, "selfish" does not mean what most people
think, but giving up the delusion of the illusory
self. The fudamental idea is anatman, "no soul."
Nothing in man persists. The public service route
woulkd be that of karma yoga.

Second, desire generally is discouraged, but desire
for enlightenment is encouraged, and therefore
desiring assistance from a qualified teacher would be
considered OK.

SS



From: Eldon B Tucker
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2001 2:15 am
Subject: Re: [US] Re: Re: "waiting till you are ready"


At 02:46 PM 10/16/01 -0400, you wrote:
>----------
> > From: Eldon B Tucker <eldon@theosophy.com>
> >
> > Would we ever come in contact with the Masters? I'd say that
> > would tend to happen if we were working on the same projects
> > in the world that they were. And we'd likely not know that
> > they were Masters. In the Mahatma Letters, it mentions that
> > up to the last and supreme initiation, chelas are left to
> > their own device and council, left to be tempted in many
> > different ways, but never told what to do. That is because
> > the intent is to allow people to develop their own initiative
> > for good in the world. They don't tell people what to do
> > because then they'd share in responsibility for the actions.
>
>This is an awkward position where one has advanced knowledge and does not
>share it in order to avoid responsibility. (Certainly a selfish notion).
>I think that even a Master would have to assume responsibility and accept
>the karmic results for her choice not to tell, so to speak.
>
>Bill

I'm not sure that the future is that so predetermined that one has the choice to tell or not tell others
what's in store for them.

The question is a matter of each person developing their self-initiative. One seeks to be a source of
creative, original, self-originated impulses for good. That could be in acts of pity for the unfortunate, teaching those seeking to learn and grow, expressions of unique and priceless art, or even raising money for the helpless or to preserve the environment.

In the big picture, we could say there are Gods, Monads, and Atoms. (I'm using the theosophical terminology.) There are the architects or law-givers, the builders or intelligent organizers of things, and the materials or the building blocks of things.

The architects are the masterminds behind things. The builders follow their plans, but use intelligence and creativity in bringing them about. The materials are the mindless pawns, the dogmatic, unthinking, always obedient followers of the instructions given out to them.

Moving up this hierarchy of consciousness, we go from mindless, instinctive, unquestioning followers of the status quo to people that show intelligence and are capable of organizing things. The first group do what is expected of them, and need to be told everything to do. The second group understand the general ground rules, and are the leaders, the
innovators, the people that make things happen through the ongoing exercise of judgement and insight.

The third group are the architects, the lawgivers, the ultimate pioneers that set the basic ground rules for our lives. What we are capable of knowing and doing is because of their efforts. Were it not for them, we'd not have what little mind and human nature that we do.

Giving someone strict orders to follow is asking them to gain further experience as pawns. Giving them general guidelines and leaving them to their own initiative is letting them development their full humanity. And fostering in them the ability to be something grand, original, and never seen before is helping them flower into Godhood.

-- Eldon



Of course there is responsibility for every action as well as the choice of not acting in certain circumstances. But the way I understand it the mahatmas fear to get involved in peoples karma directly, interfering would not be right. We are ourselves responsible for our actions. On the other hand - we are told to rather act on the side of kindness when we don't know. It is always so much easier to excuse ourselves for not acting, than to excuse mahatmas we really know nothing more about than what we read.

katinka



From: Randy Cable
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2001 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: [US] Re: Re: "waiting till you are ready"


>
>Left to One's own devices ? Sure, why not. Would you be surprised to hear (telepathecially) a master asy:"
Do not fear a little karma, do not walk through life as if you are walking on eggshells. Fear about karma may cause you to second guess your future motives so much that you will miss many chances for further unfoldment.".

And, what of karma ? I had learned years ago that karma and reincarnation was condemned by the Council of Nicea, but before the early days of Roman Catholic priests whom made this decision at the council karma and reincarnation was common knowledge and rarely talked about. You may know of examples of reincarnation in the New Testament Bible, the one that I remeber at this time is the mount of transfiguration event. This moment reflected the common knowledge of reincarnation because many folks thought that Yeshua Ben Joseph may have been 'Elias or some other great prophet who came back to us'.

From what I understand, if whatever you do, do with devotion and love for the Supreme One, then your acts
will be karmaless. But if karma is understood as necessary for further unfoldment, then so be it. By now, with your final days before the last initiation, you should create little karma in your life, do you lack healthy confindence ? Are you still insecure ? But is not a healthy confidence and security a reflection of One's trust with Spirit or Holy Presence
? By now your trust in Spirit's interaction with you should encourage you to take that step. Even doing nothing creates karma. Do not second guess, allow yourself to experience futher divine evolvement.

What do any of you think ? I could be mistaken, but I will take a chance and post this message anyway.

Thanks,
Randy